Lindsay Guentzel (00:02):

You deserve answers to questions like, “Is my lack of sleep causing my lack of focus? Or is it the other way around?” Why has no organizational system ever worked for me? Is my creativity a blessing or a curse?

(00:18):

ADHD Online is ready to help you on your journey, with $20 off their ADHD Online assessment for the Refocus Community. To get this offer, all you have to do is use the discount code Refocus20 at checkout. Head to ADHD Online.com to get started today.

(00:44):

Welcome back to Refocused, a podcast all about ADHD. I’m your host, Lindsay Guentzel, and you’re listening to Episode 98, Understanding ADHD and Depression in Our Lives with Ian Hoefelmeyer.

Ian Hoefelmeyer (01:00):

The number one thought that comes to my mind, what that depression felt like, was over-analyzing and perseverating on the smallest, most mundane part of the day, and over-blowing every interaction. It really felt like the world hated me.

Lindsay Guentzel (01:18):

Over the past few weeks, we’ve explored some of the comorbidities that can come alongside ADHD. The final part of this series has been looking at ADHD and depression. If you’re just joining us, feel free to press pause and check out episodes 96 and 97, where we learn more about the mood disorder with nurse practitioner Lakeisha Love.

(01:41):

We put together this series and we wanted to include voices in addition to the providers we’ve spoken with. While it’s all good to chat with experts, it’s also important to hear from experience experts, the ADHDers, who deal with these comorbidities every day.

(01:59):

Today we’re talking with Ian Hoefelmeyer. Ian is someone I met because of the podcast. He works with Mentavi Health and ADHD Online, who are my partners in producing Refocused. I met Ian once or twice while I was out in Grand Rapids last year, right after we launched the podcast. But really got to know him when we were both at the International Conference on ADHD in Dallas last November.

(02:24):

I’ve also been lucky enough to spend time with his wife, Ashley, and I consider them both friends. People I’ve been able to lean on these last few months, which is why I was so excited when Ian offered to share his story with us.

(02:37):

Growing up, Ian was always an energetic kid with a love of sports and had hobbies like skateboarding and snowboarding, really active stuff. He described himself as the class clown, often using humor to avoid conflict, sometimes using it as a wall to hold back how he engaged with others.

(02:58):

He got labeled the Boy with ADHD, escalating to the point where some of his teachers mentioned the possibility to his parents, but nothing more came of it. Like many people with untreated ADHD, Ian struggled through college. It didn’t matter what he tried, he couldn’t make it work. And all of these challenges just caused him to isolate and walk through the world feeling the heaviness of his depression.

(03:23):

Ultimately, it was finding himself on academic probation that started the conversation around looking into an assessment for ADHD. And while he was diagnosed with ADHD, and that led to him starting medication, an experience that could only be described as taking the world from black and white to one in full color. There weren’t any additional conversations about ADHD’s comorbidities. For Ian, depression and anxiety, the two he was carrying around in silence.

(03:54):

Ian’s ADHD diagnosis changed his trajectory in college. But after he graduated, he made the decision to stop taking his ADHD medication due to the stigma surrounding stimulant meds. After a few years, though his struggles were back, isolation had once again led him to experience depression. Only this time it was worsened by the pandemic. Going back on his ADHD medication made him feel better at work.

(04:22):

His depression, however, still stuck around. He tried to ignore it, but the stress of his job and the way his job made him feel, caused it to come to a head. He realized he couldn’t mask his feelings anymore and asked for a leave of absence from work to focus on his mental health.

(04:39):

Pairing a medication aimed at helping his depression with the work he was doing in cognitive behavior therapy, Ian was able to reframe his mindset and feel the most balanced he ever had. Through CBT, he learned techniques like journaling and thought tracking, that help him stay on top of the stories his brain is telling himself. And practicing that type of mindfulness helps him identify what’s really going on.

(05:04):

I’m so excited to welcome Ian to his first Refocused appearance. Here is more of his story on how for him, putting in the work helped him rediscover himself and take back control.

(05:25):

Well, first off, Ian, thank you so much for coming on Refocused and sharing your story with us. I really appreciate it.

Ian Hoefelmeyer (05:31):

Yeah, glad to be here.

Lindsay Guentzel (05:32):

I want to get started by going back to your childhood. How did your hyperactivity affect your academic performance in school? And what strategies did you use to cope with it?

Ian Hoefelmeyer (05:44):

Yeah, I feel like during school, I just didn’t try because my main thought was, “What was the point?” It kind of felt like a fruitless endeavor. I couldn’t grasp things. I was always a step or two behind. Math was a great example, where I would be a couple steps behind in understanding where we were at, but in high school math, that sets you back multiple weeks.

(06:06):

I would try to do flashcards, everything like that, and it would always come down to the end of the semester. My parents would get involved, start talking to a teacher, and it would come down to, “All right, what do I need to do to pass this class? What do I need to do to get that C?” And it was a lot of flashcards, a lot of repetition. But even with that, I would always get one or two of the concepts incorrect because I couldn’t understand the big picture really.

(06:30):

And so with that, it was a lot of, “What’s the point? I’m going to just go in and I’m still not going to understand it, but I’ll be able to get a C on this test, get by, be able to keep playing sports and not get grounded essentially.” I think that was one of the biggest things where I recognized it in college even, that was where I was really struggling and needed to make that change-up.

Lindsay Guentzel (06:52):

How do you think your parents’ decision not to pursue an official diagnosis or medication for your ADHD affected your development and how you interacted with others?

Ian Hoefelmeyer (07:03):

I think developmentally wise, I was always quick to be able to pick up things. I could learn little things if it was physical or I could understand it. But I think what it kept me from understanding was bigger picture things and understanding dynamics going on around me. I had so many thoughts going around in my own head, that I found it really difficult to even grasp what’s somebody else thinking, right?

(07:25):

So friends, girlfriends, everything like that, I kept kind of in an arms reach away. Obviously I had a lot of really close friends, but it was very surface level stuff, so maybe not close friends is the best term. But I struggled with being able to really engage with people other than just being goofy and silly.

(07:43):

Kind of drove me to be a little bit more attention seeking through negative behaviors with acting out in school and just being a general menace. And I think that the big thing for me was I didn’t know how to even attempt to engage with people. Because I was just so lost in my own head that everything seemed impossible to really lock in and make meaningful conversation.

Lindsay Guentzel (08:07):

Can you share more about your realization that your humor was often a defense mechanism for you? And how did you end up learning how to have deeper conversations with people? Because we’ve had very deep conversations together, so I know that it is something you’ve been able to develop over the years, but I’m wondering what that whole process was like.

Ian Hoefelmeyer (08:29):

I think I’ve always been kind of what I’d call a jack of all trades, but master of none. So I could talk about just about anything, lock into that surface level conversation, but that’s where my interest typically waned pretty fast.

(08:40):

So I really realized in college a lot of times I wasn’t really connecting with people the way I had in the past. Where I had been able to at least get past that first phase of friendship into actually hanging out with people one-on-one. And I think with college I really noticed that I just didn’t have a lot to talk about, or I felt I didn’t. Because I had so much internal monologue going on when I would hear things, I only caught the surface level of what I was learning.

(09:07):

And so I really struggled with just engaging with new people. It was a different environment for me and it really impacted me the way that I didn’t have that home base of the kids that I’ve grown up with and was friends with since the age of five. So I had to strike out on my own.

(09:22):

And I think really just sitting there and feeling detached from the rest of my college and the other kids around me, that it took me that to kind of feel like maybe something’s going on differently. I was also almost failing out of school. Having a lot of fun, but not realizing how much I was actually struggling internally.

Lindsay Guentzel (09:41):

I’m hoping you can tell us a little bit about your experience being diagnosed with ADHD in college and how it ultimately affected your academic performance.

Ian Hoefelmeyer (09:50):

I did my first year at college at home and had a lot of those safety mechanisms built in to have family helping me, kind of keeping me from wandering aimlessly at night, and going to do whatever I would end up doing with friends. I was on the point of failing out.

(10:04):

So I had gone into our counselor’s office, talked to them. I was on academic probation, first semester away from my parents, and as I am sitting there thinking, I’m studying, I’m trying to practice these habits that they keep telling me. I’m doing flashcards, I’m taking notes, none of it was sinking in. I needed some sort of additional step. And getting that diagnosis was a long process. I think I had to wait probably about, I can’t quite remember, maybe eight, nine months. And then the cost of it, even with insurance was three $4000.

(10:36):

And with that though, once I finally got in and was able to see the psychologist, got my diagnosis and they’d only diagnosed me for ADHD, no depression or anxiety or anything like that. So I started the medication and it was sort of like a snap of my brain turning on. All of a sudden I was able to retain knowledge, understand it, and using those skills that I had been trying to incorporate, finally worked.

(11:00):

It was almost like my brain could never connect smaller pieces to a bigger puzzle. And so now once I was doing that, I was able to see the whole picture. History really sucked me in because I loved learning about all these little pieces and how they built up to a bigger dramatic change in the world. And I went from nearly failing out, to graduating right around a 3.1, 3.0.

(11:23):

So really for the first time in my life started excelling in school. And realizing, “Hey, I’m good at some of this stuff.” I got really good at writing papers. Was able to really be able to argue about the differences in history and how they affected things. And it really kind of just changed my entire perspective on myself, understanding that, “Hey, maybe I’m not,” and I hate to use this word but, dumb.

(11:49):

My whole life, I didn’t think I was an intelligent person. So all of the sudden being able to comprehend the world was almost like a sheet was taken off of my face and all of a sudden I could see everything and understand what was going on around me, and it was incredible.

Lindsay Guentzel (12:03):

I know that the stigma surrounding ADHD medication and some of the conversations that were happening around you, impacted your decision to stop taking medication after college. What were the consequences of that decision for you?

Ian Hoefelmeyer (12:18):

I went into the workplace. I was working as a behavior therapist and doing really good at it, really excelling at work. And as I was wrapping up my college career, I was deciding this is what I wanted to go into, was behavior therapy. And got into the field with the intention of going to get that master’s degree after.

(12:35):

But as I got in, I kind of felt like the world was getting a little too big for me again. And what I was really experiencing was just being overwhelmed for all these new things that I was encountering. Paying student loans, having to pay all these different bills, and really manage my own life without any of those support systems even, counselors, schools, parents, trying to gain that independence.

(12:56):

I think it kind of put me in a state of paralysis almost. I talked about wanting to go to get my master’s for years, kept doing it, signed up for it, got into it, and I just never went through with it, that next step to becoming a behavior analyst.

(13:11):

And I think it kind of kept me in a state of what felt comfortable at the time, but it was really stagnation I think. And I think it slowed a lot of the growth of my life essentially. It took me a little bit longer to figure out things and it really took me getting back into therapy to be able to jump into that next phase of life.

Lindsay Guentzel (13:33):

The pandemic was difficult for everyone in so many different ways. Can you elaborate on how it aggravated your depression and isolation? And what you did to help cope with these challenges?

Ian Hoefelmeyer (13:46):

So as the pandemic set in and we were all taken away from our comfort zone, all of our friends, all the things that we did in life, forced to isolate and look at ourselves. I think a lot of people looked at themselves and were angry. I think we look at some of the events that occurred after in the country, and could probably say it’s a lot of people that were forced to look inward for the first time.

(14:08):

And for me, it really just kind of took me off of my entire being. I was totally lost. Isolating from friends, even text conversations and Zoom stuff, just trying to avoid whatever it was. It was just my wife, Ashley and I, and we were at home all this time and she was working extra hours. So she was working with crisis response, so she was obviously working a lot of hours. And I just kind of isolated myself from the whole world.

(14:35):

And with that, I felt the depression start kicking in. I got a new job at the company I had been working at and was really doing great at it. But at the same time I was throwing so much energy into that to just avoid how I was feeling. And I think that work became my coping skill, which is a terrible coping skill as far as they go. And that really just pushed me kind of further into a depression, and anxiety really started creeping in as well.

Lindsay Guentzel (15:05):

How did you first realize that despite your ADHD medication, you were still struggling with your mental health? Was there a specific moment or experience that made you realize something was off?

Ian Hoefelmeyer (15:19):

I think it was more of a gradual build where I was feeling it. I have an incredible partner. My wife Ashley is very, very understanding of mental health and she really encouraged. She never said, “You have to go to therapy.” But we had conversations about it and she really helped me kind of be that guiding light.

(15:38):

But I think what really was setting it off for me was just the fact that I was isolating, I was doing so well at work. And I thought, “Well, I should be happy.” Excelling at work is sort of that weird American culture or belief that that’s success. And we bought our first house and we’re doing great in our lives.

(15:57):

I was still personally really struggling. And like I said, just through those conversations with Ashley a lot and thinking about myself and just looking inward a little bit more, I realized I needed to make a change. Particularly as we were approaching that next phase of our family.

Lindsay Guentzel (16:12):

I want to focus here for just a second on cognitive behavioral therapy and some of the techniques that you used to help reframe your mindset. How did they help you find balance and feel more stable? What stands out for you from those early sessions?

Ian Hoefelmeyer (16:29):

I feel like what CBT did for me was give me a playbook. I’ve always felt if you give me instructions, I’m going to figure out whatever it is. And I kind of took that like a project, right? I said, “All right, while we were talking, she really recommended using cards.” We were using these CBT cards that I got off of Amazon for like five bucks and those really changed my entire life.

(16:51):

They would have different directives every day. If you’re feeling high emotions, write down what you’re feeling, put it in there and look at it later. And what I really came to the conclusion was, was that I didn’t have the bodily awareness of my own mental health and when I was escalated. So what I would do is I’d write down a note like, “So-and-so sent this email that seemed really aggressive and I was really mad about it.” And writing out just the generic what happened.

(17:17):

And then what I would do is later look at that and write a journal thing underneath it, write a little log underneath it and say three hours later, how did I feel about that same scenario? Is there a possibility that this is me projecting things? Is this me in my own mental head space thinking one way when the world’s kind of not really actually doing that?

(17:38):

We’re all kind of stuck in our own head space and we believe things how we perceive them. And I was so insecure and dealing with so much depression in my life, that everything felt like an attack. And so really rewiring my brain to change how I thought about things.

(17:54):

And what I think it’s done for me now is it’s through these months and months and months of writing journals and journals and journals filled with my thoughts. And all these wild things that I had been thinking was really able to start understanding more in the moment.

(18:10):

So if I’m feeling escalated, I can look now and say, “Hey, I need to go take a break.” Being able to be proactive, thinking about mental health, writing down a couple of great things that you did. You write some nice notes to yourself throughout the day, you did a great job with this. Try to really be proud of your own work. And being proactive with my mental health rather than reactive I think is what it taught me.

(18:29):

And I think a little bit of the reactive nature, it really just caught me when I’m in those moments, I know I can say to Ashley, “Hey, I need to pause.” When we’re dealing with our daughter, I might need to go take a break. Whenever I am feeling escalated, I can start recognizing, okay, maybe this is me just interpreting something wrong. And trying to gain a better understanding of what the actual scenario is.

(18:54):

And basically it taught me how to trust my brain. I think I felt like my feelings were lying to me a lot essentially at first. And through this long journey of training, I’m now able to interpret what I’m thinking and feel value in those thoughts. And I think it’s not to dismiss your emotions, I think it’s to help you understand things in a better perspective. And it really just changed how I viewed the whole world and how I interact with the world.

Lindsay Guentzel (19:23):

What advice would you give to someone who is struggling with their mental health while also trying to balance the demands of work? You navigated your own leave of absence from work and then the process of finding a new job, all while this is going on, and I have to imagine that was a lot.

Ian Hoefelmeyer (19:40):

Yeah, I mean, the first thing I could say is you have to advocate for yourself, in the workplace in particular. Most workplaces aren’t there to hold your hand and help you get through those mental health spaces. I did a lot of advocating and it is so hard to do in the workplace.

(19:55):

I butted heads with bosses. Really put a lot of more challenges into my life, but then in the long-term, I now have the freedom I want at work. I have the ability to do what I want as far as how I approach the work I’m doing. And in general in life, it’s you have to advocate for yourself, reach out, figure out that next step, find those resources. There’s therapies online, you’re not alone. What you’re feeling, while it feels extreme and wild in so many different ways, remember that somebody else has been there before you, right?

(20:29):

Find that resource on the internet. The internet is incredible for it, but also seek out the professional treatment. I think while I can and we can sit there and talk about what we do and all these different things, you need that help sometimes. I think that these professionals, these psychologists, these therapists, they’re incredible. Their job is to help you get on the right path and find the structure that works for you best in life.

(20:52):

So talk to those professionals and then advocate for yourself. I think that’s the only way you can really learn to grow and get to where you want in life. Don’t be afraid to take that chance of saying, “I want this.” Because that’s the only way you’re ever going to be able to get it and nobody’s going to read your mind.

Lindsay Guentzel (21:09):

I want you to go back to those days where your depression was taking over. And I want you to just describe it to me. I want you to tell me what it felt like. I want you to tell me some of the things that were going through your head. And just try and paint a picture of what depression looked like for you because it does look so different for so many people.

Ian Hoefelmeyer (21:31):

The number one thought that comes to my mind, what that depression felt like, was over-analyzing and perseverating on the smallest, most mundane part of the day, and over blowing every interaction. It really felt like the world hated me. I didn’t feel like anybody I interacted with at work at the time, that’s during COVID, where that was really all you had. I felt like everybody there just hated me, dismissed me.

(21:56):

A lot of that’s internal, but it’s what I felt in that moment and it was the saddest I could have ever felt. I felt defeated, exhausted. I was coming home and I couldn’t engage with my wife like she deserved. I couldn’t be the family man I wanted to be. I was waking up, and this was sort of the calling for me to get medicated for my depression, was waking up two, three days in a row where I was just sobbing. Uncontrollably crying at 4:00 or 5:00 in the morning, and that was just too heavy to deal with.

(22:29):

It was too much of a burden to carry. And I was, again, it was dealing with the perception that a depression medication was going to change me for the negative. I didn’t know. I was afraid of it. And it was just a rollercoaster ride. It was just the highest and lowest emotional feelings. And just not being able to regulate myself.

(22:51):

Spending hours of the day just sort of sitting there in my own head and scared. It was terrifying because I knew I wanted to stop thinking about these same things. But again, I was perseverating and over and over and over in my mind, I would keep touching on the same exact things. These small interactions where I over blew them and made them out to be these huge issues.

(23:13):

And realistically, I think just knowing I had a daughter on the way at this time, I didn’t want that life for her. I didn’t want to be that person. And it almost amplified the depression because I thought, “I should be the happiest I should ever be right now, but instead, I am absolutely terrified of the world.”

(23:32):

I’m excited to have this daughter coming into the world, but how am I going to be able to even take care of her? Because where I was at, I couldn’t take care of myself, let alone another person at that point. It was a real rock bottom, and while it was scary and the most terrifying thing I’ve ever went through, I’m glad that I was able to find the resources, get the help, and really just save my life.

(23:53):

I think it all went for the better with that. I found that the medication just helped me get out of that bottom so I could then start applying the work that I knew I had to do with therapy and all these different things. To be able to climb out of it, sometimes your body needs that chemical adjustment and it’s nothing to be ashamed of.

Lindsay Guentzel (24:12):

Ian, you know how I feel about you. I am such a fan of you and Ashley. I am so appreciative of you being willing to share your story. This is going to help so many people. And someday Hazel will get to listen to this and just know truly how strong you are. And how much work you put in to get where you are today, and you should be really proud of yourself.

Ian Hoefelmeyer (24:35):

Thank you. I appreciate it and thank you for what you’re doing. Honestly, this brings so much awareness to people. And I think your show is so great at making people feel heard and identifying with these different guests that you have on here.

(24:47):

So thank you for what you’re doing and I think you’re going to spread more mental health awareness for their generation. And I think that that’s what we’re working towards, both of us with our jobs. So yeah, glad to be here.

Lindsay Guentzel (24:56):

So many of the conversations we have on this show, my chat with Ian was another reminder of just how much adults with ADHD have gone through in their lives. So much stigma holding us back for literal decades.

(25:19):

Sometimes, I’m sure many of you have done this too, I wonder what our lives would be like if we didn’t have to deal with all of it. Fred Rogers once said, “There’s a part of all of us that longs to know that even what’s weakest about us is still redeemable and can ultimately count for something good.”

(25:38):

The way this world is built, it can feel hard to find that, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try. Like Ian, his motivation for continuing to put in the work comes from his experience of struggling and not having the support he needed to understand himself.

(25:56):

He’s proud of the work he’s doing with Mentavi Health and ADHD Online, a role where every day he has the opportunity to change that experience for someone else living with ADHD. To make sure fewer and fewer people share in the experience that he had. It’s what makes Ian excited about this new chapter in life with his young family.

(26:18):

And even though it comes with many changes and all of the feelings that come along with those, he ultimately feels empowered by his mental health journey and hopes to use his experience to help others who may be struggling.

(26:31):

Struggles are something I know a lot about lately. Ian and I actually recorded his interview on day seven of my hospital stay here in Minneapolis earlier this month. Like me in a hospital gown and everything. There’s even a point in the interview I had to edit out when a nurse came in to take my vitals.

(26:49):

Ian was so patient and didn’t let the chaos affect him at all, which was just incredible. I spent a total of 10 nights and 10 days in the hospital and in back home resting and recovering, and also doing some working because this is what I love. It doesn’t feel like a job to me getting to do this, but it also doesn’t mean that just because I love it, being sick hasn’t affected it. Being sick has affected everything.

(27:18):

In January, it was balancing the struggle of the unknown as I fought to even get an appointment with the right doctors. In March, it was navigating the grief and the fear that came with having an official diagnosis, one that is rare and incurable, and means that the life I knew, regardless of how much it goes back to normal, is gone.

(27:42):

The last month, a lesson in advocating for yourself and your health against a system designed to leave people behind. And now this time at home, a pretty alarming wake up call on just how destructive dermatomyositis, the autoimmune muscle disease I have, on just how destructive it can be in such a short period of time.

(28:04):

Add in the fact that the lung disease I now have because of my muscle disease, well, that’s affecting my voice. And as a podcast host, there’s really nothing worse. But all the bad, for all the tears, frustration, and sadness, there’s been way more good, which might sound a little hard to understand. But being sick has forced me to put my walls down.

(28:28):

It has forced me to accept help and to not question whether I’m worthy of receiving that help. It’s made my relationship with my partner, John, better. Stronger, obviously, but we are both making an effort to sweat the small stuff less. And with those little annoyances out of the way, it helps us enjoy being around one another more.

(28:50):

He actually gave me the nicest compliment after my first week in the hospital. He said, “I’ve been so impressed by how you’re handling this. You’ve just had such a positive demeanor through all of it.” And I’m happy to say I agree with him.

(29:04):

There were moments of frustration, for sure. 10 days in the hospital will do that to you, but there were never these massive breakdowns. There were never moments where I raised my voice at him or at my mom or at the nurses. And I truly don’t think that would’ve been the case if this had happened before I was diagnosed with ADHD.

(29:24):

I’ll be honest, I was kind of an asshole before I was diagnosed with ADHD. I was so emotionally dysregulated all the time. I had no understanding of my brain or my feelings or my behaviors. And if that version of Lindsay were going through all of this right now, it would be a very different story. And I am so grateful that it isn’t her. I can’t change what’s happening to my body. I can only change how I respond to it. And carrying around all that anger and grief, oh man, that would just be way too much.

(29:58):

This new normal has forced me to adapt how I produce these podcasts, and I’m so grateful to my production team for stepping up and supporting me every step of the way. Along with everyone at ADHD Online who continues to remind me every chance they get that my health comes first. Having that unconditional support and not being afraid of letting them down, there’s serious healing powers in that.

(30:24):

I’m also so grateful to all of you for sticking with us. October is our month, ADHD Awareness Month, and the Refocus team has been working hard to put together an incredible lineup of guests for Refocus Together 2023. This is the special project we started last year, where we share 31 stories from people with ADHD, one for every day of the month.

(30:47):

We do it all to raise awareness about ADHD and highlight the complexities of this often misunderstood diagnosis. I’m so excited to share what’s coming up in just a couple of weeks. You can start getting ready by going back to listen to the Refocus Together interviews from October 2022. A warmup if you will, so you’re all set for the new stories coming to your favorite podcast streaming platform very soon.

(31:14):

Support for Refocused comes from ADHD Online, a telemedicine mental healthcare company that provides affordable and accessible ADHD assessments and treatment plans. To learn how they can help you on your journey, head to ADHD Online.com and remember to use the promo code Refocus20 to receive $20 off your ADHD online assessment today.

(31:41):

Refocused is produced with the help of this stellar team. Managing editor, Sarah Platinitus, coordinating producer, Phil Rodaman, and our social media extraordinaire, Al Chaplin. My name is Lindsay Guentzel, and I am the host and executive producer of Refocused.

(31:58):

I’m so grateful to my production team and I love that I also get to work directly with the incredible team at ADHD Online, including Keith Boswell, Claudia Gotti, Melanie Mile, Suzanne Spruett, and Trisha Merchendeny. Sissy of Berlin Gray is the talent behind our show art. And singer-songwriter and fellow ADHDer, Louis Inglis out of Perth, Australia created our theme music.

(32:22):

We are also so grateful to the support we received from the team at Dexia, including Corey Carney and Mason Nelly. Links to all of the partners we work with are available in the show notes.

(32:34):

If you haven’t already, it would mean so much to us if you would follow and subscribe to Refocused wherever you’re listening now. And if you’re loving what you’re hearing, send us a note or tag us on social media. Our email is [email protected] and you can find us on social at Refocuspod.

(32:54):

Thank you all so much for being here, and until next week, make sure to take care of yourselves. And because I know we all need this reminder, in an effort to reduce the unbelievable amount of stress we all carry around with us unnecessarily, be a little kinder to yourself this week.